Guest: Matthew Campbell

In this episode of the Become an IDOL Podcast, Matthew Campbell, a former Senior Director at McGraw Hill, shares his insights on transitioning from a social studies teacher to a successful career in educational technology. Tune in to hear:

• The key skills and qualities needed to break into instructional design and EdTech.

• How Matthew leveraged his teaching experience and networking to land his first corporate job.

• Matthew's tips for aspiring EdTech professionals, including building a portfolio and developing self-belief.

Listen to this episode below: 

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Enjoy the Episode Transcript below:  

Dr. Robin Sargent  

Welcome to Become an IDOL. I'm Dr. Robin Sargent, owner of IDOL courses. This is the place where newbies come to learn and veterans share their knowledge.

I have here with me today, Matthew Campbell, he is currently a consultant in Learning and Development and a former senior director of McGraw Hill, but Matthew, would you please do a better job of introducing yourself?

Matthew Campbell  

Yeah, sure, no problem. And Thanks Robin for having me on the podcast. I appreciate it. Yeah, so I am Matt Campbell. Just give you a quick rundown of who I am. Actually started off as a high school social studies teacher for getting my masters and moving into the ed tech world, which is where most of my related career came from. I spent nine years working at Pearson, kind of working my way up into a management position there, I worked specifically in higher ed at Pearson, in the OPM industry, which is Online Program Management, where we worked with top tier universities and helped them bring their courses online. After that, I was a chief product officer at a social emotional learning product development company called the Houseman Institute. And after that, the most recently, or last couple years, I've been a Senior Director of Instructional Design at McGraw Hill. In this role, had a team of over 100 and our responsibility was to oversee the digital experiences for all K-12 products at McGraw Hill. At the moment, I run Ed Tech Expertz with the Z, which is a consultant company a lot of times, what I do is I help ed tech companies solve all sorts of issues, whether it's they need help with online courses, whether it's product development, which there's trying to understand the ed tech market. And I also provide some support when I can, for people that are trying to transition into the field. So that's just a little bit about me. So again and again, Robin, I appreciate being able to kind of chat with you and your audience and help out where I can.

Dr. Robin Sargent  

Well, I know that the first question that they're thinking is okay, but how did you make that first move from being the social studies teacher into did you say your first role was with Pearson? So how long did that transition take you? What did you do?

Matthew Campbell

Well, let's talk about that for a second, because that's something that's probably really interesting to people, and it was a different time. So first thing I want to say is that I think that things are a little bit different now how they were about 20 years ago. I do think there are a lot of people, especially former teachers who are trying to transition out of the classroom into the field. It was a little bit easier back then, but still not easy. And to tell you the truth, I just caught a break. I caught a break where, to be completely honest, I went to one of my best friends. I went to his wedding, and his brother was a manager, an instructional design manager and had and was willing to give me a shot, and unfortunately, where I was lucky, where some other people might not be, and I was able to kind of get my first job and and turn it into a career, a pretty decent one. What I will say, though, is that the story, which I'm glad you asked Robin, is why, like anybody who ever, like, sees me on LinkedIn, or anything you probably see I'm like, spending a lot of time trying to talk to people who are transitioning teachers, trying to move into the field, because I have a soft spot for them, because I got lucky, and I especially over the past few years at McGraw Hill, I hired 62 people in the last year, and almost all of them were former teachers. But even though I've been fortunate to be able to hire 60 people. There were 1000s that were still trying to get jobs. And so I spent a lot of time trying to, like, understand what it is that that they're trying to do, but also give as many tips as I can about, like, how to break into the field and industry.

 Dr. Robin Sargent  

Okay, so you got a lucky break, but I bet you learned a lot just boots on the ground. And so what were some of those things that you experienced and learned, like when you joined corporate and on the learning and development side, outside of the classroom; what were some of those things that surprised you and maybe even like incorporated into the tips that you would give to teachers that are looking to make that transition?

Matthew Campbell 

Yeah, so I'm gonna answer this in two different ways. One is just, what are some of the skills that you would need to transition in? And then I'll talk about myself personally, you know. So one of the things I'll say is that it, let's say that you are in a position, and you want to move into ed tech. And I'm an instructional designer, primarily by trade, so I'm gonna focus a little bit more on that. I always talk about how you need to be a skills mercenary. You need to go out and get as many skills as possible. And I guess the first tip I would give you is, don't sleep on your current job. And since I talk a lot about people who are teachers trying to transition, think about them right? A lot of people think, Well, how do I get these jobs? How do I get this experience? You know, well, use your current job, right? Let's say you're a teacher. Go out and build a class website and make it as fancy as possible and use as much technology as possible. You probably have a technology coach in your building. Reach out to them and say, Hey, can I help out with our learning management system? Is there any trainings that I can do when you're lesson planning for your students? Try to use some tools. Do some some reading and understanding about instructional design philosophy. Design philosophies and and try to try to use some of the tech tools that are out there, and use them if you're going to create, like, an interactive review game, maybe, usually you play Jeopardy, you've got a piece of paper with all the questions. Well, instead, you know, go out and, like, use Kahoot, use Quizlet, use tools that are out there and build something that's different. And that's a good way to kind of start accumulating some of those skills in your current job, in addition to kind of going out there over summer break or in your free time and trying to pick up some some contract work, some intern work, things like that. As far as specific skills that I found myself that I had to learn quickly, and I think people do need to know just a few really quickly. I think that like storyboarding and prototyping is really important in doing those things using tools like Figma or Lucid. I seem to be seeing that everywhere. I do think it's good to have a little coding, a little HTML in your back pocket. And I think that I would also say something that I see big, especially in K-12 right now, is an understanding of accessibility compliance. Understanding what it takes to make online materials accessible is really a need. The Justice Department passed a regulation that by 2026 every single K-12 school that has that is reliant public funding has to have online materials that accessible. So every single publisher in the K-12 world needs to have their courses compliant, and they're going to need people who can do that. So I'm getting a little long winded, so I'll stop here, but those are some initial thoughts, Robin.

Dr. Robin Sargent  

There's no such thing as long winded here. I love when my job is easy and you just keep talking. So I the next thing that I want to ask, and I think that's also interesting about your background, Matt, is the fact that you hired teachers to be instructional designers at McGraw Hill. And so I know that, obviously you have a soft spot for them, but you still looked for certain skills, qualities, characteristics, and we want to know what those things are. 

Matthew Campbell

Yeah, that's a good question. And so yeah, just to kind of set the scene, a little bit like at McGraw Hill in particular, McGraw Hill didn't have a digital division before they brought me on. And what they did was they took the digital people that were working in K-12, and kind of moved them under an umbrella, under my team. And we had 44 to start. And as the most recently, the team was up to 106 and so my job was to both train the people who were on the team, who most of them were not instructional designers, instructional design, and bring in new people, mostly, mostly entry level positions, and train them in instructional design. So I'm going to answer this in two ways, like I did last time. One is just kind of talking generally about what I look for, but then also talking like specifically. And I do want to just offer one more little caveat, which is I was in a unique situation. Since you're asking about my McGraw Hill experience, when I was at like, a smaller company like the Houseman Institute, and I was hiring one person, it's very different than if we're hiring a group of 30 people for our team, because it's a different, different bar to clear. So in the McGraw Hill situation, the number one thing that I was looking for, to tell you the truth, was, I want to see how hungry people are, and that's and what I want to see is, like, how serious are you? You know, there's a lot of people who reach out and they're like, Yeah, I want a remote job. Okay, well, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm sure you do, but that's not what I want to hear or like, Hey, I used McGrath Hills textbooks. I figured I'd give this a shot. No, I want to see people who are like, Yeah, I'm very serious about changing my career. I went out and I took these courses and I trained myself in this and then I got a free trial for Articulate Storyline. I went out and I built these activities, and I put it in a portfolio, and I worked as a I found a company that I could do some free jobs on as an intern. Like, I want to see like that shows me that you're hungry and that you're serious, and that's a way to differentiate yourself. So, like, those are some of the things I was looking for. But then there is going to be, like, the skills I mentioned before, like I had mentioned earlier, like prototyping and storyboarding, and I talked about HTML and accessibility. Those are some things that I'm looking for, but I also a lot of the times, like I would want to, I'll give everyone a free secret here. One question I would always ask in an interview is, if you're going to build a course from scratch, where would you start? And that's a trick, because what I want to know is, do you know about backwards design? Do you understand about? I'm not on video right now, but there's a giant the gold book behind my head, Understanding by Design. I want to know. Do you understand about you have to start with objectives or start with your standards, depending on what field you're in. Do you understand that how important that is, and you have to work backwards. You have to understand your assessments before you can build out your activities. Like that is just a core concept that I'm always looking for in people. Because what I do see is a lot, especially in the Ed Tech and especially in the publishing world, is just diving into products like, okay, we're just gonna jump right in. We're gonna start building things all over the place, and a lot of times you end up with very messy products if you do that. And so I was really trying to change the culture at McGraw Hill, and in trying to change my team kind of work in that way. So those are some of the things, Robin, that I'm personally looking for.

Dr. Robin Sargent  

I really like that you said that you're looking for people that are hungry, because I don't think that you are alone in looking for those things, and people really tell you how hungry they are in an interview, especially when you talked about those that are investing in themselves through education and skill building and going out and hunting down people to be interns for them and to get experience, those are the things that show the hunger that says like they really want it. And especially because when you have somebody on your team, if they are hungry and they continue, if they're building their skills before they even get there, you know, those are the good people that are going to continue to grow and learn on the job, which are just such valuable employees to have.

Matthew Campbell

And Robin, if I can, share just a fun anecdotal story, anybody who knows me well, it's gonna be like, Oh, Matt's gonna tell this story again. But when I think about the whole idea of like, being hungry and what you're looking for, oh, there's a specific situation always comes to mind. But when I was at Pearson, we were hiring for an instructional design manager, and there was somebody on our team who had been there for a very long time and was very good, and like we all kind of knew that this person was probably going to get it. But there was another candidate who had just moved into, had just been promoted to the role underneath manager. Become a lead was a long shot, but in the interview she came in. She had met with everyone on the hiring committee in advance, picked our brain multiple times about what we think the job needs and what we think are the top skills and what's needed. She had talked to the overall director and VP. She had talked to our customers, and she came in so prepared. She had she was constantly being like, well, I actually had a plan of what I would do if I was a manager, and what I think we would do, which was constantly referencing her plan and taking notes while we were talking and was fully prepared. And I walked out of the interview, and I think the whole committee what felt like we have to give her a job. She gave us no choice. And so I've never forgotten that even myself, that, like, when I go into an interview, that I want to give them no choice but to hire me. I want to be so well prepared and take it so seriously that, like, people can tell like, wow, this person is just dripping with competence, very passionate and so, like, I always think of that story, and it's something I'd want to pass on to all of your listeners here, because I think that's just something where try to give companies no chance, no choice but to hire you.

Dr. Robin Sargent  

And I love it; she came in ready to solve a problem. She understood the problem, she interviewed everybody, and she made a plan to solve the problem. That's really what you're looking for, too. When you're hiring somebody is you're looking for somebody that's going to solve your problem. The fact that she did the due diligence to figure out what that problem is and how to solve it, and to present a plan is, I mean, yeah, you have to find a place for her, because those people are incredibly rare, incredibly rare. So it's the extra mile. Okay, so I think you've given a lot of good nuggets, and I think that one of the other like questions that I want to tap into is that you currently like to support people who are making that transition, and you've listed some skills in the hunger, and is there anything else that you want to share and make sure to like put in people's ear they've, you know, they've never met you, but they need to hear from you. Like, what are some of the things like a little road map you would give them to help them make that transition?

Matthew Campbell

Yeah, it's a good question. So I guess I would say, let's say that you're in a job, whether it's a teacher or something else in let's just talk, for instance, about you want to be an instructional designer, so you're talking about a roadmap here, right? So first of all, there's no reason to not just get out there and try, but there's going to be more and more things that you can do to prove your likelihood of success. So just a few thoughts really quick. So one I talked about the skills is you need to be able to demonstrate that you have the skills that are needed for specific jobs. And one of the pieces of advice I like to give people is like, let's just say you're a teacher. You just stop talking like a teacher. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of great things that you might have learned as a teacher, but like, if you're an interview, you're talking you try to do things like talk about learners, as opposed to students, right? You want to, like, have the have the terminology down a little bit, try to understand what some of the key philosophies are of instructional design, or what does what the goals are of the company, or what the major skills are they're looking for in the job description. Try to, like, talk about those things, either in interviews or in your resume or in your cover letter, or in your portfolio. So that's one thing is, like, go out and try to get skills over summer, like, work for free as an intern for a company. And be like, hey, can I just build out a project? Be like, great, they'll want you. You get something you can put in your portfolio. And there's all sorts of great programs out there. Like, of course, IDOL Academy is fantastic. Is a great way to go out there and get specific skills and build a portfolio and to build up what you need to do. So let's say that, like, you go out, you've got some skills, you've got some know how you're able to market yourself. Well, that's just the start. Then you have to know where to look. And that's kind of where, one of the things I like to do on my LinkedIn page a lot is try to, like, give people tips into what are even the different sectors of the ed tech world? What are the type of jobs that are typically open so you know, like, what to even search for, what to set alerts for, let something like LinkedIn do a lot of work for you. And then a big part of it, too, is something I always talk about, is you've got to, you've got to make connections, constantly, make connections and milk those connections appropriately. And it just means, in the sense of, like, be real, be genuine. Go to conferences, go to webinars, go to trainings. When you're at your kid's soccer game, you know, maybe another parent works for Walgreens, and they need to build an eLearning course, you know, like, you never know, get out there and meet people and talk to people, and just be genuine, and just form relationships with people, and then one day in the future, the more relationships you build, you know, if you're looking for a job, you might end up knowing somebody who works at a company, because unfortunately, you kind of got to get past that automatic stage where they'll take a look at you. But that's also if you're looking for a full time job. There's also a lot of people in the instructional design or ed tech world who make a living through being a contractor. Just go out and take on small projects here or there. And that, again, is some of the very same fundamentals you have to be able to have those skills. But you can even start with something like go on a website like freelancer.com or Upwork, where you can get paid to do some simple things. Start off by just, there's plenty of people out there who say, I'll pay you 50 bucks to create a PowerPoint for me and just do that. And just while you're doing that, work on some of your design skills, and then maybe something a little bit more advanced, like, oh, well, I need to PowerPoint with a whole bunch of embedded animations. Like, okay, that's your next project. Next thing you know, you're using something like articulate, and you're building a whole eLearning module. So that's, that's what I would say, is to go out there, build your skills, make connections, make sure you know where to look for jobs. That's almost those some of the best things that you can do. But unfortunately, it is a tough market out there. There's a lot of people trying to trying to get these jobs and get this work, but it's not difficult. I see a lot of people doing it and not differentiating themselves very well at all. And so I don't think it's too hard to take some of these tips and to make yourself clearly rise above the rest.

Dr. Robin Sargent  

Yeah, and really, I mean, as far as the market goes, it's only difficult in the sense that you do have to be at a certain level with the level of your portfolio and your professional skills and showing up and showing like that, you know what you're talking about, and as if you have been there, done that, but as far as availability of opportunities, that it is a growing industry, and I just want to make that clear, especially for... because there is a lot of fear mongering I see online about, like, oh, there's not enough jobs. That is not the case. If anything, there's plenty of opportunities, plenty of jobs. But the limitation is, are your skills up to date? Does your portfolio look professional and things along those lines not really like, oh, the market is shrinking. That's not that's not the case. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, so this has been wonderful. And then there's only one other thing that I would add to your list, and that is that when you're building these skills and building these PowerPoints or building this eLearning, you need to get feedback from a professional in the field. You don't want to build all these skills and build all these items without having someone who's already professional take a look and give you feedback on what you're doing. Otherwise, like, yeah, anybody could go build a PowerPoint. But that doesn't mean it doesn't look like trash. So you want to make sure it looks at a professional level. And the only way you're going to get that is to get feedback. Okay, Matt, so what is your best and final piece of advice? What's like your motivational speech that you're going to give people are like, okay, I'm ready, I want to follow this roadmap. What is the last thing that you'd want to tell them to give them their pep talk?

Matthew Campbell

Yeah, all right. You can do this. One thing that I'll say, it took me a while to fully realize this, but like working in McGraw Hill and having a lot of kind of newer, younger staff, or people that were new to the career, I noticed that a lot of people just really had a hard time believing in themselves. Felt like, well, you know, this isn't really my career. I don't you know like, and I end up realizing you got to forget that you can do it okay, as long as you're working hard and you're picking up new skills, trust yourself, believe in yourself, and you can do this. And I think Robin is right, there are plenty of opportunities out there, and you do need to go through and hone those skills and have people who know what they're talking about help you review that and give you the expertise and the feedback. But ultimately, whether you've got 20 degrees or or you're just coming out as being a teacher, ultimately, like you can do this with some hard work and the right mentors and the right guidance, you can and I know this sounds kind of cheesy, but I just I saw a lot of that, and especially from the former teacher crowd of people who just felt like, I just don't know if I belong here. And a lot of them, they did. It just took them a while to kind of figure that out. So you asked for a motivational and that's what came to mind. Is this something that I see a lot of people just feeling like they don't deserve it, they don't believe it, and you gotta change that attitude first.

Dr. Robin Sargent  

I love that, because self doubt is like the biggest and quickest drain on your motivation energy to change your life and reach your goals. And so I think that is a wonderful way to leave the people to remember that you have to believe in yourself. And so, Matthew, this has been such a pleasure. I know that they've all taken away so many nuggets from you. So where can people continue to follow you and your journey and the and the things that you are posting about. 

Matthew Campbell

Yeah, no problem. I mean, so definitely on LinkedIn, I always try to post weekly I try to post tips about applying for jobs and also nuggets about the ed tech industry, if you're trying to look for me also I, I now full time work for, as I mentioned at the top of the call, Ed Tech Expertz with a Z is a consulting company that I now run, and so I work full time, working with companies, helping them to solve any problems with their digital needs, whether it's product leadership, it's course building, course Management, course strategy, or even just the ed tech market itself, and trying to make connections, get into to new markets, to understand what the competition is, how to price things, things like that. So yeah, Ed Tech Expertz is a group that I run that provides that support. So those are probably the two best ways to get a hold of me and kind of see what I'm up to. 

Dr. Robin Sargent  

Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much, Matt.

Matthew Campbell 

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast 

Dr. Robin Sargent  

Thank you so much for listening. You can find the show notes for this episode at idol courses.com. If you like this podcast and you want to become an instructional designer and online learning developer, join me in the IDOL courses Academy, where you'll learn to build all the assets you need to land your first instructional design job, early access to this podcast, tutorials for how to use the eLearning, authoring tools, templates for everything course building and paid instructional design experience opportunities. Go to idol courses.com/academy and enroll or get on the wait list. Now, get out there and build transcendent courses.

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