Guest: Chris Skees

In this episode, Robin Sargent interviews Chris Skees, a Learning Product Manager at Cisco, about his career progression in the learning and development industry. He provides insights into career development and upskilling strategies, emphasizing mindset, curiosity, and stretch projects.

Tune in to hear:

• Chris Skees discuss his career journey from content creation to learning product management and the various roles and industries he has worked in. 
• Strategies for career development and upskilling, including taking online courses, reading, conferences, and stretch projects to expand skills.
• Advice for aspiring instructional designers on clarifying career goals, researching job descriptions, and applying instructional design skills in different professional roles.

Listen to this episode below: 

Subscribe to Become an IDOL Podcast: Apple Podcast | Spotify | Google Podcast 

Connect with Chris on LinkedIn

Are you looking for a no-nonsense formula for creating engaging courses and training? Check out my new book, The Do It Messy Approach: A Step-by-Step Guide for Instructional Designers and Online Learners (IDOLs) on Amazon.

Enjoy the Episode Transcript below:   

Robin Sargent 

Welcome to become an IDOL. I'm Dr. Robin Sargent, owner of IDOL courses. This is the place where newbies come to learn and veterans share their knowledge.

Robin Sargent 

I have here with me today, Chris Skees and I met Chris through LinkedIn. He is a Learning Product Manager at Cisco and Chris, there's so much more to you. Will you please do a better job of introducing yourself?

Chris Skees 

Sure, happy to Robin. Thanks for having me here. Yeah, it's funny, I kind of come from a content and writing background. That's what I loved growing up. That's what I studied in college. I studied English and political science and so, I started off in marketing, doing copywriting and web development. I really liked that but I hit this point where I realized I'm not really good and I don't really enjoy selling things to people. I really want to like inform people and teach people and help them learn. So yeah, I got kind of... it was in the right place at the right time in 2007 and I joined a learning startup called Option 6 and it was just like a great place to learn and grow my skills. I came in as a content developer, got to work on projects with instructional designers and media developers, so got a lot of experience across different industries, different modalities, types of learning, and really kind of trial by fire just learned more about what we do in instructional design and learning design. And yeah, stuck with it. And in 2010, that startup was acquired by GP Strategies, which is a big kind of multinational training vendor. So got to work in the vendor space for another 10 years. So you know, working with healthcare, and finance and baking and tech companies that wanted to outsource some portion of their learning and come to us to help support that. So, I was a content developer, and then eventually became a team leader. So, kind of leading people and helping them grow in their careers and upskill and develop as people and as professionals. And then after about 10 years of that, I thought, wow, I've been here for a decade, like, that's a long time. Like, I should kind of look around and see like, what else is out there. And I think, yeah, I started looking and kind of seeing what was out there and about two years ago, that's when I decided the time was right and I joined Cisco, at the Meraki division. So we focus on cloud-based networking, which is really awesome. And so for the past two years, I've been focused on product enablement, which is really like a fancy word for customer education. So those are our learners, right? Our customers who use our products, and our mission is really just to help them get up to speed as fast as possible, get value from our products, understand how to use them, what the use cases are, kind of like the big picture of you know, what they can achieve with our products. So yeah, I've been here for two years and really loving it. So, yeah as a product manager, I think a lot about what our project teams are working on, what business stakeholders need us to do, right? So lots of kind of incoming requests for content development, and then thinking about prioritization. So, what are we going to do next? And why? And who am I going to have to say no to, right? And they're going to have to wait a little bit until we have more resources. So lots of kind of that strategy and planning here and what I do now.

Robin Sargent 

Do you ever build certifications for your users on Cisco products? Or is it more just kind of this is how you put it into place and start using the tools?

Chris Skees 

Yeah, you know, it's a good question. So Cisco is known for their certifications in the tech industry and they do a great job on the Cisco side with those certs. So on the Meraki side, we have to be a little bit careful, because we're a little bit different. So we do like certificates of completion, we do kind of help people have acknowledgement and recognition of what they've accomplished but we're not doing like the technical certifications to the level that Cisco is doing them. We're really more focused on our customers and our products. A lot of those Cisco certs are focused on just general people who want to grow their IT career, and we're really focused on customers. So a little bit different there but we do... it's always great to get that recognition, right, or that something tangible, that shows that you got something accomplished. So we do offer those to people.

Robin Sargent 

That's so interesting. So back in 2007, your transition into Learning and Development was starting out as a content creator, and so was it creating training content?

Chris Skees 

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a great... As a content developer, I really owned kind of the storyboard, right? So, once we had an initial design and design document that the instructional designer would create, it was kind of really taking this high level outline and starting to flush that out, right? Of okay, here are the topics we want to cover. Like how are we going to approach those? Where can we use some scenarios? How do we get people engaged? So, it was kind of this really tight knit collaboration with instructional designers, but I was kind of the lead writer and the content. So I really owned the wording and the quality of the content and then especially as we got into reviews, right? So internal stakeholder reviews, SME reviews. I was kind of the person directing traffic and trying to... making all those changes, tracking everything, and making sure all the issues that were logged, were all updated. And then when we did eLearning, I love this part where I got to basically build courses, right? So I was also kind of leading on, okay, we've got the storyboard, it's approved, stakeholders have signed off on it and we need to go build it. So I got to help kind of take the lead on that and then work with the media developer who did more of our visual design, graphics, videos, some coding as well. And so all the camp kind of came together, typically, in a course, at the end, and then doing all the last minute beta reviews and testing and all the stakeholder feedback you get when something is just about to go live.

Robin Sargent 

So you've had a very long career at this point, right? You've been from an individual contributor to now you run... How big is your team?

Chris Skees 

Yeah, you know, our department is... it's almost 40 people. So we do have six team leaders but it's great now because I'm... I've been an individual contributor. I was a people manager and now I'm back to being an individual contributor. So I don't have any direct reports myself, but I work with our really great leadership team here to kind of think about our strategy and we have about 40 people who execute on that from different teams.

Robin Sargent 

Isn't it funny, like they put you in an invidual contributor role, but they give you a manager title?

Chris Skees 

It is kind of funny. It's kind of like a project manager or program manager or product manager. There's all these kind of titles and so I really think about, yeah, like, I'm managing our product and our learning development content and so, there's a lot that goes into that, and there's a lot of like influencing without authority, right? Because I work really closely with our teams, but they don't report to me. So, I have to convince them, right? With ideas and data, right? And get them on board. I can't just tell them that they have to do something. So I kind of like that, because it's a challenge, right? And I have to kind of bring people along on the ride instead of just kind of pointing them in a direction and telling them to go.

Robin Sargent 

So over your long career, Chris, what are some of the ways? I'm sure that, you know, having a strong writing and marketing background was very beneficial to your Learning and Development career. What are some of the things that you've done along the way to upskill, in our profession?

Chris Skees 

Yeah. I really run the gamut. You know, I've been to conferences, right? So some of the big DevLearn conferences and like, engaged with people and gone to sessions. I've done tons of reading. I'm a reader. I love to read and write. So, I've read so many books and just learned from other people and their experiences, but, you know, I would say the biggest thing I've done is really just like stretch projects. That has been such a big deal for me is that every role I've been in, I've always thought, like, what do I really enjoy? And what would I like to do more of? And then I just went to my manager and said, Hey, I really like coding in HTML, and CSS and JavaScript, like, I want to learn more of that. And I've had some great managers over the years, who are always willing to support me in that. And so, when I was kind of vocal about what I wanted, and when I wanted to learn, and upskill, they would keep that in mind. And then they would find these stretch projects like, oh, you know, we need someone to design a new, well you know web framework, or we need someone to work on responsive design, or we need someone to work on documentation for our coding, and approach to building eLearning. And so, I would always kind of take those projects on as side projects, learn, right? And then I have the skills and then like, I could roll that into my next position. So that's been a big one for me is that kind of like, that deliberate practice, right? Going out, and like getting right on the edge of your comfort zone, where you're not quite sure what you're doing but you know, that's what the stretch projects are great for and so many of those stretch projects led to my next role, right? Because I was able to kind of build those skills, kind of demonstrate that I had the skills, and then once you start doing that people around you, they realize, oh, this person can do this, he can do this. So you know, they start to find those projects and then you kind of have this organic progression into that next role, or position.

Robin Sargent 

I love what you said about how, I had to figure out what I wanted. I think that's... that has to be step one, right?

Chris Skees 

Yeah.

Robin Sargent 

You have to figure out what it is that you want and so many times I'll talk to students, and I'll be like, what is it that you want? And sometimes they just have a hard time even identifying what it is that they want. And so, it's interesting, that's your first step is, right? Is to identify what you want, and then to stretch yourself and then start doing it. And then now you've demonstrated that you can do it which leads to more projects in that area. If you're talking to somebody, Chris, who is trying to enter this field, what are some of the things that you encourage them to do right now, right? Without the opportunity to get experience in a job. What are some of the things that you share about how you upskill? You've talked about reading and what are some of those other things?

Chris Skees 

Yeah, you know, a big part of it is just mindset, you know, and one of the things that's helped me is just being curious. I think being curious is so important for, like upskilling and learning new things, but also like, being in education or learning, right? It's like, what does this mean? And how does this work? And like, How can I break this down? And like keeping that sense of curiosity, I think is so important. And so... And yeah, it's really, it's getting clear on what you want, right? So, you know, trying things out, like, it's great to just try these projects, right? So go out. And you know, I know software can be expensive, so you don't necessarily need to think about, oh, I need to build a Storyline course. But, you know, think about something that you've struggled with and think, how would I break this down, this thing I learned, and present that to other people? So go out and create a design document. I mean, just, you know, you can find templates online for free and say, how would I design this? Pick an audience and like, go through that mental exercise and like, scope that out and figure out like, what are the questions I would ask? What are the inputs I would need, right? And just kind of like, think through that, and how you would build something. And I've done a lot of that, and just, you know, doing the research. And then you know, there's so many things out there where you can just, you can build, right? So find something you know about and then think about how would I break this down and teach other people about that, and just like practice that and maybe pull someone in you know. Pull in a child or a spouse or someone, a friend, and break it down for them and see what they say. And I think that's great. That's a great way to just kind of approach it and get engaged with something you both enjoy topically, but also like be curious about how you would do things and like kind of practicing that way.

Robin Sargent 

Yeah, and then, of course, the other half of deliberate practice is once you go and you figure out, and you do, go get feedback from somebody who is an expert at what it is that you are practicing. So, do you hire instructional designers or do you have insights on kind of what people are looking for maybe in the companies and roles that you've worked at?

Chris Skees 

Sure. So, you know, when I was a team leader, I was very actively involved in hiring and so I did a lot of interviewing and hiring, and I would say the last two years has been more of a panelist. So I haven't been as active as a hiring manager but I've been active on panels, right? So when we bring in candidates, we've hired two instructional designers in 2022. So got to be on the panel, interview them and like, go through that process. So yeah, it's really interesting to see it from both sides, right? As a candidate and as an interview and hiring manager. You know, I guess the one thing I would say about that is that, like we said earlier, get clear on what you want, right? And so do your research, and really kind of understand what's gonna drive you and what's gonna make you happy, and that will help you narrow down the search. I think generally, the more you can narrow down and focus in on what you want, like fewer applications for a better alignment is going to yield better results than this very wide search, where you're sending lots of applications, lots of effort, but getting very little in return. It just doesn't feel good and I kind of learned that the hard way myself, when I came to Cisco is I started by applying very broadly and then quickly realized, I really have to narrow my search to what I'm really good at, because that's where I was getting the interest back from those companies. So I would focus on that, and I guess the second thing I would say what the job description is, you know, interviewing is kind of like an open book test, right? Like, the job description is the answer key, right? A well written job description, it will tell you everything that the interviewers are looking for, just in that job description, and if you're coming from an education background, you can think of it as how do you assess people? How do you assess your students? Well, a lot of times, you're gonna have a rubric. Right? So, a lot of times hiring teams will have some kind of rubric, and they're looking for skills and those skills are outlined in the job description, right? So think about it from that perspective, go through, find out those skills that you know, are repeated multiple times in different ways and think about how would I assess these skills? And then think about how would I assess my skills? And how do I communicate that? And I think that's a good way to kind of get into the mental framework that your interviewers are using to assess you when you get into interviews.

Robin Sargent 

I love it. Is there anything else that you have seen work really well, in our field? I think it's so interesting, that a lot of times sometimes in instructional design, we spend so much time training and upskilling others that we neglect our own professional development. And so, I know you've mentioned stretch projects, and getting clear on what you want. What are some of the other ways that you've seen other people who are in the field, take upskilling seriously?

Chris Skees 

Yeah, it kind of depends. If you're in a role right now, I always want to look for opportunities to kind of work within that, right? And so lots of companies have great like education programs or L&D budgets, and I think a lot of times as L&D people, we forget to do that for ourselves, right? Like we create the learning and we think we don't need to take these courses but I always liked going out and taking courses because I always have this meta perspective of looking at the content. And I'm like, trying to learn the topic but I'm like, thinking, well, why did they put the objectives like this? Or why did they design this interactive this way? Or why did they format the video this way? Right? So I like going through and doing courses and upskilling, because I can learn new things but I can also like, see what other people are doing. And I think that is so important to see what learning other people are putting out there and what that looks like. So go out and find free courses, there are lots of them out there. And instead of just focusing on, okay, I'm just going to, you know, absorb this content, like do that analysis, as you go through the course. Like, why is this like this? Why did they put this piece here? Why did they engage me here with this quiz? Like, what were they thinking? And I love going through and kind of reverse engineering that way to try to like get those insights.

Robin Sargent 

It goes back to being curious too isn't it?.

Chris Skees 

Yeah.

Robin Sargent 

Why did they do this? And why did they do that? And yeah, I mean, I'm the same way. Not only do I run a school, but I probably buy more online courses than, than anybody I know. Because they are, they're so much fun, you can learn. And you can really just kind of see like, all the decisions, the design decisions that they made along the way.

Chris Skees 

Yeah. And you know, I can share an example I took a course recently, I really enjoyed, they had little kind of like, they have scenarios, right? So they had these situations they would put you in, and then they would ask you, okay, if you're in this situation, maybe with a co worker, and the co worker says this, how would you respond? And they gave you a multiple choice answer, and you selected it afnd then when you selected it, they showed you in the results, the percentages for everyone else who had taken that course how they had responded, right? So you got to see kind of this like, instant kind of feedback model of not just like, oh, you know, A is correct, or B is correct but you got to see like, okay, like 67% of people chose C in this situation. And it was really cool to like, compare yourself to your peers. And I was like really kind of blown away, because I was immediately thinking, wow, there's a lot that went into this, right? Because they're capturing that data, they've got that stored somewhere on an LMS or record system, right? And then they're feeding that back to me in real time as I take the course. And so it's like really cool and really inspiring to think about, oh, this is a great way to like engage people, but like, you kind of relating to your peers and what your peers are doing and thinking in a certain situation.

Robin Sargent 

Oh, I know that as soon as you mentioned it, Chris, I started thinking like, I wonder what technology they used? What was their tech stack to build this? Because I would like to see that too, right? Because it also lets you know, like, you're not alone, in why you think certain ways or like it's normal for you to think this is the right choice for the scenario. 60% of you agree but whatever that feedback is, so yeah, lots of inspiration can come out of just upskilling as well, especially for our our field.

Chris Skees 

Yeah, and I really have been interested the last few years in like the social learning component, because I think that that's how so many humans just naturally learn, right is like, from the people around them and the people they interact with. And sometimes I think like, Well, how did people learn on the job before we had computers, right? And it's like, well, they turn to the person next to them, right? And asked a question, or watched that person do it and then they did it. So it's like, how can we kind of build those connections? Whether you're in a course or an instructor led event or something that's blended. It's like, how do we get people not just like, talking to an instructor, which is kind of like top down, right? But how do we get peers talking to each other, like parallel connections, talking and sharing their stories and learning from each other? And not just learning from whoever's running the session or building the course. And so I've really been thinking more and more about this social learning. I'm like how do we learn from our peers and engage with our peers, and really get inspired that way?

Robin Sargent 

I'm obsessed with social learning. I mean, it's built into my entire program. And what's so interesting is like, even apprenticeship models, right? It's all about, like, how people learn before. I mean, those have been around forever. I mean, it used to be you had to get an apprenticeship under certain people in order to go into that trade, even in education as well. Even quoted, like Plato was my teacher and... Yeah.

Chris Skees 

And even, you know, I recently posted how I took a few years off on a sabbatical and went out and did farming for a couple years. And I learned a ton about learning and training based on that experience, and it was an apprenticeship. And a lot of the farms had this motto where they would say okay, you watch me do it. And then I watch you do it and give you feedback. And then the third time you do it on your own, right? And that was the learning model. And so I just love that kind of like how simple and effective that was. And it wasn't based on some grand theory, but it was just practical and worked and I thought yeah, that's like a real world example of like, on the job training, right there.

Robin Sargent 

That's deliberate practice, like, very simply. And so a lot of people listening to this, Chris, they want to become instructional designers or they're on their journey. And so I know you had your own unique one, and it was back in 2007. But you're still in it, you're still in Learning and Development, you've been on the hiring panel, and you work with a lot of instructional designers. What is your best and final advice that you give those that want to become an IDOL?

Chris Skees 

Yeah, I think it would just be, stay true to yourself, really think about what you want. And I know this is a theme that has come up over and over again today. But really think about what you want and what drives you. And I think if you pursue that, eventually you will find success, right? And so, when you can find that intersection of like, what you enjoy doing and what you're good at. And if that is instructional design, like eventually, if you keep pursuing it, and you're good at it, and you enjoy it, like even if you have some setbacks, you're going to eventually stick with it and find success. So I think that's kind of the mindset piece. And then, you know, practically too, I would say, there are a lot of ways you can, you know, apply instructional design skills. For instance, we have a project manager on our team, who is amazing, she's awesome. She has a background in instructional design. And you know what she decided, I like project management, right? And so, just because you're upskilling, as an instructional designer, doesn't mean you have to have that one title. There's lots of other titles and opportunities to apply those skills in lots of different positions. So, you know, don't get too hung up on a specific title, especially when you're job searching. Because you'll find that when you start getting these skills of, you know, doing analysis and kind of consulting and being critical of you know, how things work and how people learn, and start to really think about that, like, you can apply that in a lot of different ways. And I know a lot of people may think I have to find an instructional design job. But there's so many other options out there, right? Even as content developers, or places you can start and work toward an instructional design job because learning on the job really is priceless. And getting into projects with clients and stakeholders and SMEs. That's what's going to help move you forward and if you have to start as a content developer or as a project manager, or somewhere kind of off adjacent to IDs, and then move into an ID role. Lots of people have done it that way and that's a totally viable path.

Robin Sargent 

Absolutely. That is great advice. So Chris, where can people find you if they want to follow you and just keep in touch?

Chris Skees 

Yeah, LinkedIn is the best place. I'm easy to find there. I post regularly, post about kind of work and some of the things I'm working on, some of the things I'm thinking about, and just some of my experiences. So yeah, reach out to me there. I'd be happy to connect.

Robin Sargent 

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You've been a wonderful guest.

Chris Skees 

Yeah, this is great. Thanks for having me, Robin.

Robin Sargent 

Thank you so much for listening. You can find the show notes for this episode at idolcourses.com. If you liked this podcast and you want to become an instructional designer, and online learning developer, join me in the IDOL courses Academy where you'll learn to build all the assets you need to land your first instructional design job, early access to this podcast, tutorials for how to use the elearning authoring tools, templates for everything course building and paid instructional design experience opportunities, go to idolcourses.com/academy and enroll or get on the waitlist. Now get out there and build transcendent courses.

If you are a new listener to Become an IDOL, we would love to hear from you.  Please visit our Contact Page and let us know how we can help you today!

Subscribe & Review in iTunes

Are you subscribed to my podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today. I don’t want you to miss an episode. I'll be publishing a new episode every two weeks and if you’re not subscribed there’s a good chance you’ll miss out on those. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!

Now if you’re feeling extra loving, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other people find my podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!

Want more tips on how to become an IDOL? Get my free guide here

Join the Conversation!

We have a wonderful and friendly community of expert and novice IDOLs in the Become an IDOL Facebook Group. We would love to have you join us in the group or chat with IDOL courses on of our social media channels.