Guest: Betty Dannewitz

In this episode of the Become an IDOL podcast, Betty Dannewitz and Dr. Robin Sargent discuss leadership training and overcoming imposter syndrome in L&D.

Tune in to hear:

• Betty’s background in learning and development and how she became a known conference speaker
• Insights into imposter syndrome, including common causes and coping strategies discussed
• Tips for overcoming imposter syndrome during a career transition or when learning instructional design

Listen to this episode below: 

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Are you looking for a no-nonsense formula for creating engaging courses and training? Check out my new book, The Do It Messy Approach: A Step-by-Step Guide for Instructional Designers and Online Learners (IDOLs) on Amazon.

Enjoy the Episode Transcript below:   

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Welcome to Become an IDOL. I'm Dr. Robin Sargent, owner of IDOL courses. This is the place where newbies come to learn and veterans share their knowledge.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

I have here with me today Betty Dannewitz. You may know her from the very famous podcast ifyouaskbetty. So today I actually get to manifest asking Betty. So would you please do a better job of introducing yourself and giving us a little background on you?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Sure. Although I do think that was a really fun introduction. You are totally manifesting ifyouaskbetty because you just asked Betty. That's very meta, very inception. Anyways. Hello, everyone. I'm Betty, Dannewitz. I work for Blanchard. So I'm a Solutions Architect, for a leadership development company. I have been in learning and development 20 plus years, and been working with Blanchard about three and a half. So previously, I worked with financial institutions like Ally Financial, Fifth Third Bank. I also do a little work on the side, known often as "ifyouaskbetty." And not only is it a podcast, but it's also some consulting around how to think differently about how we design learning. Yeah, so that's a little bit about me. What else do you want to know?

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

So, I want to know, what is Blanchard? What does that do? Tell me about that.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

It's the Ken Blanchard Companies. So we just recently rebranded from The Ken Blanchard Companies to Blanchard. You may remember a book that either you read, or your parents read called The One Minute Manager. So, Ken wrote that and like 40 plus other books about leadership. So, we do leadership training, most famous one is SLII, or sometimes it's called Situational Leadership, which a lot of folks have taken multiple times over their career. It's really about how do you assess your employees or direct reports based on their confidence and competence in a task, not based on who they are, but how they do this particular task? And so, it's a great way to create a language that works between employees and managers. So yeah, that's what we're about.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Oh, beautiful. So, you actually... I always think it's like next level when you get to be in the Learning Department for a learning business.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

I don't know if it's next level, but it's a different level. Like, they might be this you know. But still, it's a little different type of work, because I'm often working with other learning professionals, which is cool, but also a little daunting.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

So, tell me your origin story, like how did you become an instructional designer?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Sure. So, like most people, I was really good at my job. And so they came to me and said, 'Hey, would you like to teach other people how to do it?' So I started with Fifth Third Bank. I was a part-time floating teller for a couple... Technically, I was never really part-time but anyways, so I started that. I worked my way up to office manager. So I worked in like the brick and mortar branches for like four years, and an opening came up for a trainer and they were like, 'Hey, we'd love to have you try that.' And so I transitioned over into Training Specialist, a lot of you recognize that title, been around for a while. And I did all the things immediately, everything from instructional design to updating existing materials to interviewing subject matter experts, teaching classes, that type of thing. And so I did that for a while and then I got to go through, and I say, I got to go through because I'm actually really grateful for this now. But they did a consolidation or a centralization of all of learning. So when I started, learning was part of the bank's affiliate, right? So I reported into like Eastern Michigan, and then they did this centralization, we all became one HR and I then actually got to do more. So instead of just focusing on the 90 branches that were in East Michigan, I got the entire state of Michigan, and then eventually I was supporting programs that were across all 19 affiliates. So while it was a little painful, because any type of change and growth tends to be painful, it was still a really neat experience to get to go through that. And it also helped me to learn about all of the other aspects of L&D, not just being a training specialist. But what does it mean to be a developer? What does it mean to be a designer? What does it mean to be a performance consultant, those types of things. I got to work with all of those different people. So, that's kind of the origin story. At one point I did leave Fifth Third after 16 years, it was really hard to leave when you're at a company that long, but then I moved on to Ally Financial. I was there for about five years and now I'm with Blanchard. So that was... that's the short version.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Now you are a known face on the conference circuit. Tell me when you started doing that.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah, so 2018 I..

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Really?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah, I was working for Ally. And we actually... I had this meeting with my boss and her boss. Actually, I take that back. It was my boss and the head of the department. So I think it was like her boss's boss. Right? And that she was like, "Hey, what are you guys doing that's innovative?" And I looked at my boss, I was like, "Sometimes we bring doughnuts to class!. I don't know. Nothing." She's like, "Okay, we need to do something that's innovative, maybe something like augmented reality." And I was like, "Okay, we can do that. Sure." And I went back to my desk, and I Googled, what is augmented reality? I had no idea. And I'm like, Oh, well, this is Snapchat. This is face filters. I was like, what the heck? I worked in insurance operations, okay? I worked with people who took and filed claims for insurance. It's as awful as it sounds. And I was like, I don't know how, I don't know.... So my boss and I found a pre-con at a conference called Realities 360, which doesn't exist anymore, but was part of the guild. And we went out there, and I went into the pre-con, I was like, this is gonna be really cool. And okay, I gotta tell you this side story. So, because you'll love this. You know, my buddy Destery, right? Yeah. Chin beard.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

He was even on this podcast.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Oh, yeah, he was. Yeah. So I'm sitting down with my boss. And there's this guy at the front of the room. He's like messing with all the tech and plugging stuff in. He's got this black shirt on and a chin beard, right? And he looks like the '90s incarnate. Like somebody said, "Tell generative AI to make a guy that looks like the '90s." And that's Destery. So he stayed up there, and I leaned over to my boss and said, "Who's he like the IT guy?" I totally thought he was the IT guy because he looked like one of the IT guys that comes in and fixes everything. And then he turns around and was like, "Hey, everyone, I'm Destery." I'm like, what? Oh, look.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

That's funny.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah, so I sat through Destery's class and learned how to create augmented reality. Completely fell in love with it. And also, of course, went up to him afterward and was like, 'Hi, we have to be friends, because I need you to help me know how to do this.' And he was like, '"Okay!" So that's our origin story. There you go, you got a two-for-one.'  The next year, I was so excited about what we had done with what we learned. I was like,"We gotta go back and tell the story." So I put in, for the first time ever, for that same conference. And I was like, "I want to come and tell the story of what we learned." And they accepted me. And that was the beginning of it.  So while I had fallen in love with augmented reality, I was smitten with speaking at conferences, just absolutely because I was speaking to my people. And to see the light bulb go on, and for people to realize, "Oh, my gosh, I could do something else. I could do something different." It was like such a rush. And I was like, 'I have to keep doing this and keep teaching folks.' And I did. So I just kept going.

Dr. Robin Sargent 

I get it. I love it. And now you guys are still friends today. You guys do the circuit together and that's... Okay, that's what... I actually asked that question for my own benefit, so. Yeah, that's.. Okay, and so I bring that up and I know that a lot of times, one of the things that you focus on, Betty, is imposter syndrome. So tell me why imposter syndrome first, and then we'll get into it.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Sure. Well, the easiest answer is I have impostor syndrome and I know that the more people I talk to, the more I find other people also suffer from the same thing. And the more I know that—this sounds terrible, but—the more I know that other people experience the same thing, the better I feel, and the less alone I feel. Like, it makes me feel normal. I'm using that. I don't know if that's really a thing, but it makes me feel like it's okay. Like, there's not something wrong with me to know that there's other people out there that feel the same way.  And so, yeah, so I really—I like to talk about that and I've got lots of thoughts and feelings for sure.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

What was it that made you start to realize, I have impostor syndrome? Was it the conference? Was it becoming accidental...? What was it?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

I'm going to tell you right now, no one's ever asked me this question.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yes. And I hate to give him any credit, but the first person that ever said the words, imposter syndrome to me was Destery. And we were talking because I was getting ready to do that first session, like we were just talking about, and I was like, "I don't know who am I, right? I don't know who am I to even...?' And he's like, "Yeah, that whole imposter syndrome." I'm like, "Wait, what did you say?" And he said, "imposter syndrome." I'm like, "What's that? I don't...?" I had never heard of that. I'm like, "What is that?" And so he told me his explanation, I don't even remember what it was. But then I went back, and of course, I'm Googling it and I'm like, "Oh, shit I have this. This is exactly what I have." And so then I did what most people did. I was like, 'Oh, okay.' And then I just set it aside and I ignored the fact that that's what this is. And I just tried to push through all my feelings.  And what I found, like I said, is the more conversations I had with people, the more I was like, "Okay, this is a thing." And so then COVID happened. I don't know if you remember this thing called COVID...

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Really?

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Do I remember...?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

... and everything shut down. And I was left with way too much time to think and I was like, you know what? I was like, I bet I have this hypothesis that if I were to ask people from different backgrounds, different countries, different everything the same questions about impostor syndrome, they might not have the same answers, but I feel like they're going to use the same words, because I kept hearing the same words over and over again. Not enough. I should do more. I'm not worthy. These are the types of things that I kept hearing. So, I devised a plan and I was like, I'm just gonna see if anybody wants to talk about this. So I was standing in line at the grocery store, and pulled out my phone, open LinkedIn, and no images, no pre... nothing pre... nothing. I just typed in a message. And I said, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing a podcast on impostor syndrome." A podcast, right? I was talking about doing one....

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Single.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

On impostor syndrome. Are you someone who wants to talk about that or do you know someone? Here's sort of the criteria: Number One- You got to have some sort of presence on social media, because in order for people to relate, they have to kind of know who you are, you know? Number Two- You have to be willing to share and be vulnerable and be honest about your impostor syndrome. And Three, you actually have to have impostor syndrome. So if you fit those requirements and you're interested, here, fill out this... I'm still standing in line at the grocery store. I whipped up a little Google form that was like, name, email address, why I want to be involved, done. And I put it in there and I sent it out. It is still to this day. It's text only, right? Just text. It is the highest trafficked- I'm not even using that word, right?

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Wow.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

... post I've ever had. And it got... I can't even remember. At one point I had to turn off notifications because so many people kept.... I was just like, good lord, I guess people want to talk about this. So I had 40 people fill out the form, which means they clicked on the link, they actually put in their name, their email address, and they hit send, because who knows how many people did parts of that, right? And then just were like, no, I'm not going to do it. And I had 25 people actually show up for the interviews. And so the first person I interviewed was Moe Ash. You know Moe.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Of course, I know Moe. A faculty member.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Moe is amazing. Moe's... just in case people listening don't know Moe, he lives in Egypt. He's a business owner. He owns a learning and development business. He's brilliant at gamification, absolutely brilliant at gamification, and other things, but definitely gamification. And I met him in a class that I did, an augmented reality class. So I told him..Moe was like "Were you doing video or were you doing audio?" I said, "I don't know. I keep going back and forth." I'm like, "Because I think it's just going to be an audio." I said, "But let's do video. Because I just want to see. Something...the universe will tell me." Within three minutes, the first question I asked him was, tell us about you and Moe's entire body language changed. And I said, "This is going to be a video series." It has to be, because there was such a dramatic change in how he was holding himself once he had to talk about himself. And I was like, after I finished, I was like, this is going to be really powerful. So the series ended up being this maybe more than you asked for, but I'm giving it to you.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

This is exactly what I asked for.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Okay, good. The series ended up being 25 videos on YouTube. It took a while because of the editing—just a thing. 25 videos on YouTube and then I released them I think two a week for like 12 weeks. Moe's was number one. He's still the number one listened-to podcast. He has the most listens of all my podcasts, that particular episode. And then after I released all of the videos, I released all of them as like an entire season, actually, in one and a half on the podcast, like the whole thing, so that people could listen, because you can still hear his body language change but the video is just so, it's so dramatic. And everyone was like that. And here's what I found out. Okay, here's what I found out. 25 interviews people from all over the world, men, women, etc... like all different jobs. Mostly L&D, some L&D adjacent. I had a video guy. I had a guy that was the head of sales at Ally Financial, but he has an L&D Department under him- that type of thing. I found out that people use a lot of the same words. They had things like I said, not worthy, not enough. Those types of things. People felt like they could do more, they should do more and these are people who were wildly successful. And they also were the folks that were like, when someone would say, "Hey, you just did an amazing job." They'd be like, "Oh, it was nothing." It's just immediately deflect and I saw myself in everyone. And I was like, "This is gonna make a huge splash." And it did. I mean, it was really effective. People were like, "I feel that way." I'm like, "I know. That's just the thing." And then, once that sort of landed, I turned it into a session and that's what I'll be doing at ATD later this month, is talking about how to tame your imposter monster. Because imposter syndrome steals talent. It does. It keeps people from being their best. It forces people to leave a job, because they feel like they are not doing a good enough job, even though the evidence is completely the contrary. So yeah, that's kind of the imposter syndrome story for me.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

That's so curious to me that you'd say that imposter syndrome keeps people from doing their best when the whole feeling of impostor syndrome compels you to do more to prove that you are good enough. And just like everyone else, I have also felt impostor syndrome at a time and for me, it was always an impetus to do more. And so in some ways, I would say that it contributed to me doing my best. Is that not... Is that different you think? Or...

 

Betty Dannewitz 

No, I think it's true. I think imposter syndrome can be a motivator, but can also be the reason you burn out.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Oh, well, I've been on the edge of burnout.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah, you've been there before. But, it can also be the reason you don't raise your hand to do something that you're fully capable to do because you've already talked yourself out of it. So it can keep you from those opportunities. So it's... the ultimate sort of conclusion that I come to is that it's not something that goes away. It's something that you learn to tame or to cope and that's when you can learn to use it to your advantage. Can I use my impostor syndrome to push me to do more, to push me out of my comfort zone, and learn that I'm actually very talented in this area or able to do things in this area? And can I also then tame it when it's pushing me too hard? Or when it's telling me lies about myself? And so it's a tricky little minx, right? That can be helpful but can also be very, very destructive.     

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Yeah, it's almost like where is the energy to do or take action coming from? Is it coming from a place of self-doubt? Or is it coming from a place of I want to do this, like I'm following my inner call, versus I'm just doing something to impress this person or this, you know, voice in my head. Is that kind of the difference?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

I would agree. I think, yeah, it's something that you have to harness. It requires more self-reflection and really like, "What's my motivation here? What's my intention?" And it can keep you from saying no, and sometimes no is the word you need to say.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

As a complete sentence.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah, because no is a complete sentence. That's what I hear, anyways.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

So, I want to get into coping strategies, because I know a lot of people experience impostor syndrome, and especially when you're going through a big challenge, like a career transition, or you're starting something new. And I'm just wondering, can we get a little deeper? Have you looked into like maybe where this stems from because I've been reading a lot recently around this area, like around shame, and the shame and toxic shame that we are given, you know, whether it's in our home as children or in the school system, you know, the different pieces of shame that are a part of growing up. You failed. Putting you in front of the classes of failure. You know your parents saying you're not good enough. Other influences in your life. Is there a stem for it? Or is it...

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Well, it's interesting. So are you reading Brene Brown, by any chance?

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

I think I'm reading like the book before Brene Brown. I read such a cheesy title, but was really good book, Healing the Shame that Binds You.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Oh yeah, that's good also I would recommend, The Gifts of Imperfection. It's one of her first books where she talks about, because she's a shame researcher. Yeah, so it's interesting because the answer is, yes and. So what I've done with the folks that I have interviewed is ask them where they think it comes from. In the first set of interviews. I'm actually in the middle of a second set of interviews, another 25 interviews with folks, all different folks and I'm digging a little deeper and asking this question, Robin. I'm saying, "Hey, do you think that there's... is there something else about you that makes imposter syndrome happen? Maybe something about you? Or in your past? Or like, is there something that you feel either triggers it or makes it worse?" Because there are some common triggers? You actually already mentioned one, which is, you know, you start a new job, you're being newly measured. Sometimes imposter syndrome happens when somebody new joins your team, and they're sparkly and shiny, and the boss can't stop saying nice things about them and that can trigger it. Feedback—good, bad, or indifferent. Feedback can trigger imposter syndrome. I actually had Matt Pierce on from TechSmith, and he talked about how that is a huge trigger for him and some of the coping mechanisms that he has to deal with. He had a great story around it. And so there are lots of things. I also wonder about things like neurodiversity, childhood trauma, the fact that if you're Gen X, are you just— do you just have imposter syndrome because you're part of Gen X? I mean, like, these are questions that I have. I don't always ask them specifically, like, "Is it because you're Gen X?" No, no, no. But like, trying to get that information out however they want to share it, right? Some folks feel that their imposter syndrome is worse because they've been through situations where they felt shamed. Like you're saying, like, terrible divorces, which most divorces are terrible, like, that's very few are amicable and nice. And, you know, custody battles, things like that can sort of make them feel like they're not enough, they're not worthy. They're not a good person because this particular thing happened to them. So the answer is, like I said, Yes and. I think there are a lot of bits and pieces. Just to give you a preview, one of the folks that I have coming up in this next segment, the next 25 interviews, is Judy Katz and she talks about how she's Autistic and ADHD. And she talks about how that has impacted imposter syndrome or the feelings of self-doubt and imposter syndrome on her. So it's gonna be interesting because we get a little deeper. In this next section, it's more about how does it manifest itself? And where do you think it comes from? And I think you'll see yourself in a lot of these same people. You're like, "Oh my gosh, yes. Same, same." So...

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

It's also interesting too, one of the things I picked up out of that book, which, you know, the shame book relates to this in the sense that I talked about when you experience some of this toxic shame, or from being abandoned, right? Being abandoned by your parents splitting up or your mom or dad leaving you or whatever, some form of abandonment, it can produce this toxic shame in people. And from that shame, you either go one of two ways: you either have to become the best to prove this voice inside of you wrong. Like, no, I can keep showing up to keep showing you, like, to quiet the voice. Or you become the complete opposite, right? Where you like rebel against those standards, and you feel defeated, almost like, I'm not even going to try. And so I think that's kind of, you know, ties into what you said like imposter syndrome can keep you from doing the things that you want to do. And I say, well, can it also do this? And I think it does both because...

 

Betty Dannewitz 

It does both.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

It gives the extremes. It produces the extremes in people.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

So, very fascinating. What's really interesting, I mean, since, I guess you're gonna get me vulnerable on here. Me and my sister experienced some childhood trauma. And you will see that the two outliers are me and my sister. I am the overachiever. The workaholic. I literally cope through success. So... My therapist said. And I think it's true, I think it's a great coping mechanism. And you'll see my sister, and she is the complete opposite. I mean, if you look at her life, and how she handles... she avoids all problems. She avoids... she didn't graduate high school, she didn't go to college, you know what I mean? Like, we were complete opposite people, but we grew up in that same house. And I think shame and impostor syndrome works differently.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Absolutely.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Even in sisters. And I just wonder, alright, so people, you know, probably got some ideas, whether they have imposter syndrome or not, right? You're gonna know because you are going to hear those self-doubt thoughts. Alright. So people acknowledge that they got it, but they don't want it to hold them back. So what are these coping strategies?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah, so it's a little different for everyone. And what you have to do is figure out what works for you. And so, Robin, what works for you is success, right? That's a way that you cope. Now, you also have to balance that with, like, not getting burnt out. Making sure you take care of your family and yourself, right? So the coping mechanism, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best. I want to pause because I want people to hear that. There is nothing wrong with that. What becomes a problem is when you destroy everything else, including yourself, on the way, right? So there's a healthy way to want to be the best. So you've got to find that. Other coping mechanisms can be as small as one that Matt brings up, and I actually show in my session, when he talks about this, is, you know, he struggles with feedback. And so he said, what he started doing was, when he'd get a piece of feedback, he'd write, he'd sort of journal it down, or even just on a post-it note, "Here was the piece of feedback. Here's what I perceived they were saying. Here's what's true about what they said." And so you can see the difference, right?  Like, I heard this, this is what they said. This is what I heard and internalized but this is what's actually true about what they said, and seeing the difference between what he perceived and what he internalized. Another thing is, I have what I like to call a board of directors. So I have like a group of folks that I go to, people that I know will tell me the truth, no matter what the truth is, with love and I go to them when I'm like, I feel this way. Like, who am I? I have said that so many times, who am I? And they're not there to kiss my ass. Instead, they're there to help me sort of write my thinking. And they're like, "Well, let's think about why, you know, this might be a good thing for you." So like, for example, somebody... like you get praise, recognition and praise, and a lot of us are like, "No, don't, don't look at me." When really what we should say is, "Thank you, because you did work our ass off." You don't have to be like, "Well, thank you. I know, I'm amazing." You can just be like, "Thank you," and then know that they recognized, whether you agree with it or not, that you did a great job and you did some really amazing work. And so that's when my board of directors come around me and be like, okay, so you got this praise and recognition. You're saying, who am I? Okay, so let's think about this. What did you actually do? I did this, I did this, I did this. Okay. So if somebody else did that, wouldn't you say, "Hey, good job." Well, yeah. Okay. So like, it's people that are willing to kind of come alongside you and be a part of that. So I think having a board of directors can help you cope big time with any way that impostor syndrome manifests itself. Overachieving. You know, some people just shrink back. I think of that meme where Homer Simpson just shrinks back into the.. like some people just...

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Blah...

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah. So like, they can help with that, too. So those are just a couple of the coping mechanisms that are are pretty common.

  

Dr. Robin Sargent 

I love it. I think it's exactly what I think even that book talks about and what we know about how we can keep these things inside. It's like you said, internalize it. If we don't externalize it, right? If we don't put it out, like whether journaling or talking to your board of directors, then you're just going to let yourself internalize whatever it is that you perceived that someone said. And so, I mean, that's therapy, but you don't have to go to therapy to externalize these internal things that are bringing you shame and harm and making you feel like an imposter.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah. Agreed.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

I think it's so cool that you've interviewed so many people that are successful just to show that it can be anybody. How much of this comes from fear? Is that the same type of thing?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

You mean as far as impostor syndrome?

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Yeah.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah, a lot of times it's fear of success. Like, okay, so what if I'm good at this, then what? Then what's the next step?  One of the things that Moe says that's so great is, I asked him to tell us about a recent time that he had impostor syndrome. And he's like, "Well, I won this big project and this work." And I was like, "Well, why did you choose me?" And they were like, "Because we know you can do good work." And he said, "But you haven't even... You don't... but, okay." And I was like, "So the word you were looking for was 'Thank you'." He's like, "Yeah, but I couldn't find that word." And I was like, "Okay. So what did you do?" He's like, Well, I just decided that this had to be the best project I've ever done. Yeah, you feel that, right? Like, and of course, it was. They knew and felt he was qualified. He probably didn't have to overachieve but he did to sort of get through those feelings. Yeah. And so I think that's a great example of what you're talking about is, what do we do? Like, what? How do we cope? And it's different for everyone.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

How'd you find your board of directors and get them to sign up for this?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Well, okay, so here's the thing about the board of directors. If you make everyone your therapist, no one will have lunch with you. So you gotta just remember that. So you have to have a broad, like, you can't just have two people, because eventually you'll be like, "Oh, my God, buddy, you're talking about the same damn thing again." And so you got to have a few. But it's really people that you've spent time with. You have to spend time with these people in person. There's nothing wrong with video calls but to really build a solid feeling of trust, you've got to have some time together. And so these are people that I've known for years. Some of them are my family members, so they can't escape me. But like women that I met in a running group I was in 10 years ago, that I still have breakfast with every Saturday, their on my board of directors. Some of the folks I've met along the way in the conference circuit. People that every time I'm at a conference you'll find us near each other because we like each other and we spend time together. We are going to say the "F" word. We're friends.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Wow, what?!

 

Betty Dannewitz 

We have fun together. So like those people are... and often they're people that are like me trying to do similar things. So they can recognize and relate to the feelings that I have and help talk me down. And then when they turn around, have the same feeling a week later, and come to me I can talk them down, sometimes using the same words which pisses them off but yeah, well, it works. So, yeah.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Oh, I love it. I love it. And I mean, it is fun. Finding people. Like it sounds like you found a lot of your people through shared interests.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yes and experiences. Yes.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

That's a good one-liner right there. If you think everybody is a therapist, nobody will have lunch with you.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

I mean, it's true.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Okay, so let's get a little more granular and talk about impostor syndrome when people are looking to transition their careers. They know that they want to become a corporate instructional designer. Most of the people that listen to this podcast are either transitioning teachers or they're coming out of graphic design, or something like that. And so we've talked about a couple of things but if we could get just a little more specific about, what are some of the ways that they're going to feel impostor syndrome during this journey, and what are some of the more specific things they can do?

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah. So I think the imposter syndrome starts when you're updating your resume. Yeah. You got to update it and you're like, I don't know what I do. I don't know. I show up and do my job. I don't know what it is. So one way that I found to help overcome it at the point of updating your resume is instead of building your resume as these were my tasks in the job. Instead, reframe it as these are the skills that I used in this job. So that you may have a lot of times on a resume, people have like a section that is skills, which is great. But when you get into the actual, I worked at Fifth Third Bank, I worked at Ally Financial, you want to write those tasks as if they were the skills that you use. So maybe your job was to run logistics for training courses, which included shipping materials, booking rooms, that type of stuff. Right? I did that job for a long time. Instead of putting "run logistics for training courses," you had to strategically organize and work with folks of varies backgrounds, at different locations to coordinate. You see what I'm saying? And it's not just about using flowery language, it's about changing the language to be skills-based. Because that way, when it first goes through that bot, if you just have that you ran logistics that bot does not know you are very strategic, that you have excellent people skills, or that you can execute. It doesn't know those things. You have to tell it those things to get past that. So that was one thing that helped me is when I got to the resume part, I started thinking about it as if these are the skills that I used. And so that helped me think about, oh, well, this is where I'm really strong. And so then that informed, as I started looking at job descriptions, more about what I wanted to do. And I'll tell you, the more jobs I applied for, the more I knew what I didn't want to do. And the more... I was much more focused on what I did want to do. And because I had done that work, that of changing my resume to be sort of skills based language, I knew I could do those things. So it sort of bolstered that. Another thing I did was, as I was trying to update the resume, I went back through my good job at a girl file, because I used... this was back in the day, when we used to like send people handwritten notes. You know, we don't do that that much anymore. But like, when people would win awards, like I think I had, like some sort of weird coaster thing that said, you're the best or you know, something like that. And I went through that. And I remembered that's the the accomplishments that I had even on like project levels. And that helped me with the whole resume, making it skills based and then applying for jobs. And so when I got my job at Ally, and I talked about this one because it was the biggest change for me because like I said, I stayed at Fifth Third about five years too long. Because I worked from home. This is before working from home was cool. I was very comfortable. I knew everybody. I felt like leaving there felt like I was getting divorced from 600 people that I had been married to for 16 years. Like it was really, it was a very difficult decision to actually try to actually go. And so I was sitting at a stoplight I had applied for so many jobs. And I was sitting at a stoplight and I do not recommend this when you're driving. Nevertheless, this is what happened. And there I was just kind of scrolling through Indeed, which had become my Mecca. I left Facebook behind and I was all about Indeed and there was this job for Ally that kept coming up that was sponsored. And I'm like, well, whatever. I might as well just apply for it because I had seen it multiple times and thought they won't want to interview me. It's a sponsored job, which means there's hundreds of applicants they are never going to get through, they're not going to think, I have enough experience blah, blah, blah, right? And so, at the job I did this, like fast apply thing that Indeed had which is like a two button push. I say that because I don't want anybody to think I was just sitting there like, well, is this now what happened? And so I just did it. And I didn't think anything of it. And two days later, I had a call from a recruiter. Hey, this is so and so from Ally, we'd love to have a phone screen with you. Great. I had a phone screen. Three days after that I had an in person interview. The next day I had an offer and it was an amazing, great job move for me. But had I not done that other work. I'd have never been confident enough to hit the button and apply, right, because it seemed too big for me. And I was actually a great fit. So I think those are some of the things that you can do to combat it. Remind yourself of who you are and what you've done. Because I imagine that list is pretty cool and then make sure that you're showing off that by writing your resume in a way that shows your skills, not what your tasks were. And then from there that will help build the confidence to apply for the jobs that you really want. Hopefully that's helpful.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

I think that's very helpful, right? And then you're just in so many ways, you are almost like, if you were to write a resume for somebody that you love right now, how would you write the resume about them? Right? You wouldn't take in any of those personal attacks on yourself. You love them and then you're like, oh, you know, I can even... when I think of somebody I love, I think of my youngest son. He's like six years old, so they're still at a really cute age. And so I just would think like Jack Henry, oh, he's got the skills of communication. He's so friendly, you know what I mean? And if you can do that for your own self. And then another thing that you said, just another way of making those things external, I can't tell you how many times I just forget to slow down and think about accomplishments or victories or any of that kind of stuff.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Move on to the next and..

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Yeah.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

We should celebrate.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

We should keep track, we should celebrate more, we should reflect.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

I agree.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

And make those things external. All right. So, I think that was super helpful. And the last and final piece of advice that you have for those that want to become an instructional designer.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Start instructionally designing things. So the best way to learn is to do. And so yes, go through the IDOL Academy. She's not paying me to say that. Yes, go and learn all the things that you can, but don't get stuck in learning. Sometimes we're so busy learning that we don't do. So as soon as you start to learn something, go out and practice it. Whether it's, I'm now going to write a training on how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, or tomorrow night, I'm going to make pizza on the grill. So I'm going to come up with some sort of instructional... Like whatever it is, I'm going to come up with, this is how you do it. Because the more you practice, the easier it's going to become for you to do and then you're going to get over those nerves and those fears of like, "I don't know if I know enough." You do. You just have to start doing. So that's my...

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

You're completely aligned with me because if you are in the IDOL Academy, you have to do it! It is completely hands-on. You are required to do an internship. You do, do, do the whole time. So I am 100% aligned with that message and I would even say, do it messy. So you can just get over the...

 

Betty Dannewitz 

I feel like I've seen that before. There's like a book about that-about doing it messy. I don't know if they're really cute green color, something.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

You know, that's where I live, in the world of cute. So I just loved spending this time with you, Betty, I... even me, I got a chance to learn so much and I really appreciate the work that you're doing. And making this something that... It's not just a you problem or just, you know, somebody who's feeling its problem, but it's a collective experience that we all or most of us have this feeling of imposter syndrome and there are ways to tame the imposter monster.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

That's right. I've enjoyed chatting with you too. It's been great.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Okay, so you can find Betty, if you go to ifyouaskbetty.com.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

That's correct. Check out the ifyouaskbetty podcast, which is available on wherever you get your podcasts, so Google, Apple, Spotify, those are the main places. You can also go to ifyouaskbetty.com/podcast and listen to it there. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. You know, I'll connect with just about anybody. If you're trying to sell me something I'm not going to respond but that's fine. You can do what you need to do. Sorry.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Just say "No, thanks."

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Yeah. Sorry.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Yeah, you're not even going to get that. Thanks again, Betty! Appreciate you.

 

Betty Dannewitz 

Thank you so much.

 

Dr. Robin Sargent 

Thank you so much for listening. You can find the show notes for this episode at idolcourses.com. If you liked this podcast and you want to become an instructional designer, and online learning developer, join me in the IDOL courses Academy where you'll learn to build all the assets you need to land your first instructional design job, early access to this podcast, tutorials for how to use the eLearning authoring tools, templates for everything course building and paid instructional design experience opportunities. Go to idolcourses.com/academy and enroll or get on the waitlist. Now get out there and build transcendent courses.

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